某次兼職，負責替客戶校對文稿。文稿由一位外藉人士撰寫，照理文法應該沒甚麼大問題，誰知讓栗子妹看見這樣的句子：
When you are finished, remember to ...
After you are done, please ...
起初栗子妹以為紅色部分是 have finished 和 have done 的手民之誤，但這種句子在文稿中出現的次數太頻密，開始讓我猶豫起來。
按上文下理，文句是想表達「當完成某件事情後」的意思，但若用被動語態 (passive voice) 書寫，意思應為「被了結」(即廣東話的「玩完」)！英文的文法不是「進化」得那麼快吧？
把這個疑惑帶回公司，與同事討論。同事的分析是：「外國人說慣了，便沒覺著有甚麼問題。他們的文法，絕非我們想像中的好。」
是這樣的嗎？不知各位覺得如何呢？
I know an american, who makes grammatical mistakes all the time. So I think you're right. To me, are finished/done means 「被了結」too.
回覆刪除[版主回覆08/06/2008 13:09:00]Teamaster: Unfortunately, we are wrong. (See Teacher's comments)
正如很多港澳人的中文文法也不一定好呀
回覆刪除[版主回覆08/06/2008 13:10:00]淇淇：也是，倫敦低下階層人士的英文也可以很爛。
可是今次我真是錯了。
Finished and done are not passive verb forms, but adjectives.
回覆刪除[版主回覆08/06/2008 13:11:00]Many thanks, Teacher!
One follow-up question: Is it OK to use 'are finished/done' as passive verb forms to me 玩完?
栗子妹：慧行英文不及栗子妹，所以不敢貿然俾意見，不過句中文法確有語病，“ When you are finished ” ~~ 中譯應為“當你完成 / 結”，這 finished ﹝完結﹞從句語上來看是指人，不是指一件事
回覆刪除[版主回覆08/06/2008 13:13:00]慧行先生：查了字典，語法沒問題，而且確實解作「做完」。
英文就是那麼麻煩，查少一次字典就中招~~~
> 正如很多港澳人的中文文法也不一定好呀 更正如就算以普通話為母語的北京人，寫中文也不一定比香港人好呀。
回覆刪除[版主回覆08/06/2008 13:15:00]咁得閒討論語文問題，不如去延續閣下的求愛系列啦
Well, in order to be passive, it has to have a noun form followed by a "by", right?
回覆刪除I don't see finished and done in the above sense followed by a "by", do you?
To say 玩完 , you could say "finished/done playing", but that still seems adjectival, me thinks.
[版主回覆08/06/2008 14:02:00]Teacher: But 'by + noun' can be omitted when it is not important to know who does the action ...
Anyway, I think I know what you mean. It's all about context, right?
Sorry I use a Cantonese phrase here. 玩完 means 'being killed'.
Yes, I know the "by xxx" in passives could be omitted, but it still has to make sense if it isn't omitted. The done/finished mentioned earlier didn't because I couldn't think of "who by".
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About physically getting killed, I haven't heard "done/finished" used that way. But it's commonly used to described the end of one's career, or an adventure, or a work project.
[版主回覆08/10/2008 06:46:00]Dear Teach: Yes, you're right. I'm too far fetched. 玩完 doesn't mean physically getting killed. Sorry!
Something to share: I wrote a sentence 'When they are finished with building ...' My boss changed it to 'When they have finished building ...'
I think my sentence is correct, right?
Thanks again for your detailed explanation!
If 'building" means the structure, then yes, your sentence sounds alot better than his, which actually sounds like they're "killing the building".
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If "building" is the gerund of the verb form "build", then both sentences are identical to me. Except, I remember some obscure grammar rule from some obscure textbook which says you're supposed to use the simple present to describe a future situation preceded by "if" or "when". If that rule is still operative, then yours is correct and his is wrong.
For the typical grammar-challenged American like myself, they are used pretty much interchangeably.
[版主回覆08/15/2008 20:37:00]Wow! Is there such a grammar rule? I only know that we can use the simple present tense to talk about schedules ...
Just being curious: Shouldn't 'challenged' be preceded by an adverb?
Yes, it should've been grammatically-challenged. Now you know what I meant
回覆刪除I did read about such a rule, but as to whether it's real, or just some textbook writer's personal preference, who knows? Definitely not me!
[版主回覆08/15/2008 21:47:00]Teacher: I was just reading your blog. And now that you're here!
And for that grammar rule, let me search my grammar book.
What does your grammar book say?
回覆刪除As Teacher said, these are not passive voice sentences, but rather participle form used as adjectives. They (esp the second one) are more often used in spoken English instead of in formal contexts, like it's over/I am through etc. I remember 古德明's column talked about this before.
回覆刪除By the way, I think your sentence 'When they are finished with building ...' is perfectly OK. Your boss was being a bit picky.
[版主回覆12/14/2010 20:18:00]不，我老板沒覺不妥，覺得不妥的只有我。