I don't understand the first line because I don't know either of the words 轎 and 矯 Here's another one: I was teaching the word Auburn, a color a few days ago. I thought the initial sound was an "h", but my class last Thursday laughed at me and told me the initial sound was "k". But last night, out of 8 people, 3 agreed with me but 5 still said "k". What say ye? [版主回覆09/23/2008 20:35:00]Dear Teach: 轎 = sedan chair; 矯(正) = to correct I'm a little bit confused about your example. What initial sound are you talking about? Do you refer to the Cantonese for 'auburn'?
Yes, I was referring to the color auburn in Cantonese [版主回覆09/24/2008 08:02:00]Dear Teach: I've just checked the dictionary. The initial sound of 褐 should be 'h', similar to 喝.
Thank you, Chestnut. I am so glad I am right for a change. But I am a bit surprised that not a single person out of my Thursday night class had it right. Not so good for them. Speaking of 粵音9聲 from the other blogger, why do they call it 9? There're only 6, and the other 3 are clearly of a different pronunciation. Don't you think those scholars are being too cute by half? [版主回覆09/25/2008 08:20:00]Dear Teach: Please don't blame your students. Most people in Hong Kong do not care about Cantonese. They just 有邊讀邊, and that's why there are so much mispronunciation. I don't know much about 粵音9聲. Scholars say there are nine tones in Cantonese and I accept it as a fact.
I wasn't even aware of a British pronunciation of "schedule" until you mentioned it so I looked it up. So, you elide the "c" in schedule? I've never heard it pronounced that way. Maybe I'm becoming "hard of hearing" in my old age [版主回覆09/25/2008 08:23:00]Dear Teach: Yes. And I think that pronunciation is rare in HK. When I was in secondary school, I didn't use the British pronunciation. But a tutor in U told us that we need to be consistent (either all British or all American), so I chose all British from then on.
I have many 懶音 because I live with my grandmother who came from the mainland China and my mum has a hearing disability... so sad... dunno how to correct my Cantonese pronunciation SIGH... [版主回覆09/25/2008 12:43:00]Don't get upset, Kenji! It may help if you listen to the radio more often. And remember to look up a word in the dictionary if you're not sure of its pronunciation. BTW, I think your voice is nice.
Chestnut, I am surprised a language lover like yourself is not aware of 粵音 9 聲 . But I assure you there are only 6. You could verify it by taking a common pronunciation, like 人 , and think of all the possible pitches such a sound would have in Cantonese, and I assure you you'll get 6. But when you question a Cantonese aficionado, he'll tell you the other 3, which anyone not hard of hearing could tell are of completely different pronunciation. He'll then give you a long and esoteric explanation of the reasons, which make no sense at all. [版主回覆09/25/2008 13:01:00]Dear Teach: I'm more a money lover la~~~ My colleague says the last 3 tones in Cantonese (7, 8, 9) is the same as Tone 1, 3 & 6 + a 't/k/d' ending sound. Take 詩 (si1) as an example. It corresponds to 昔 (sik7). The pronunciation changes as a consonant stop is added. Maybe experts think that 6 tones are not enough for their study, so they add 3 more? If you want to get a thorough knowledge of a subject, sometimes you may need more accurate classification.
I'm not sure if I could agree with Nicole's statement. While language is used primarily for communication, how it is used says a great deal about the user. It's similar to clothing, if you know what I mean. Dressing properly for the occasion shows respect for those you're meeting with. Speaking properly is the same idea. If one doesn't know the proper pronunciation, that's one thing, but if one does, one should try to achieve it. In the example she gave, the 諗 as 審 and the 諗 as "think", as you explained, are two different words in Cantonese which happen to have the same character, so there's no need to change the pronunciation of "think". [版主回覆09/25/2008 13:24:00]> Dressing properly for the occasion shows respect for those you're meeting with. Yes. If you respect your mother tongue, you'll try to say every single word properly and learn more about it. But there are other constraints such as 約定俗成. If the people around you use a certain pronunciation (no matter it is correct or not) but you insist on using another, people will think that you are pretentious, just like what Nicole said. Peer pressure ... I think people in HK don't care about Cantonese. Everyone rushes to learn Putonghua nowadays.
If only the rules you mentioned were consistent, it wouldn't be so confusing. Still, how does one know if the epenthesis is t, d, k, or p? Take 詩 (si1) as an example, is the k added here for just 7, or all 7, 8 & 9? What about 刺 ? Is it part of the 9 sounds of "si", or is it out by itself. To me, 刺 doesn't only have a different end consonant, it also has a different initial consonant. [版主回覆09/30/2008 12:56:00]Dear Teach, Here comes my late reply: 1) For the epenthesis, I think we'll have to look up the characters in the dictionary. Take "si" as an example, you can have 'sit', 'sid', 'sik' and 'sip'. Some of the sounds have a corresponding character (昔 sik7) while some do not. 2) The ending sounds apply to 7, 8 and 9.(sik8) is 錫, (sik9) is 蝕. 3) 刺 doesn't belong to the 9 sounds of "si".
但有好多如果讀正音的話,會被人投以奇異目光啊
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/23/2008 20:37:00]淇淇：竟然有這樣的事？！能否舉例？
我倒是想起 schedule 一字。全公司只有我一個人讀英式的音，但我間公司明明是英國公司來的...
I don't understand the first line because I don't know either of the words 轎 and 矯
回覆刪除Here's another one: I was teaching the word Auburn, a color a few days ago. I thought the initial sound was an "h", but my class last Thursday laughed at me and told me the initial sound was "k". But last night, out of 8 people, 3 agreed with me but 5 still said "k". What say ye?
[版主回覆09/23/2008 20:35:00]Dear Teach: 轎 = sedan chair; 矯(正) = to correct
I'm a little bit confused about your example. What initial sound are you talking about? Do you refer to the Cantonese for 'auburn'?
廣東話不嬲都係世界上最難學o既語言唻o架啦！
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/23/2008 20:29:00]之前俾同事捉懶音，捉了一大堆出來
看完正確讀音, 也可理解, 唯獨有一例子,
回覆刪除諗一諗 ( 「諗」字的讀音是「審」，不是 lum)
我始終不能想不通 ?
[版主回覆09/23/2008 20:28:00]一休：據同事所言，「諗」是文言文，字典標音「審」。查新雅中文字典，「諗」可解作深深了解、勸告、思念。
至於這個字的讀音為何會變成 lum，而「諗一諗」為何會解作「想一想」，同事的導師並沒有解釋 ，這個可能要請教彭社長。
打錯字, 是 我始終想不通.
回覆刪除Yes, I was referring to the color auburn in Cantonese
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/24/2008 08:02:00]Dear Teach: I've just checked the dictionary. The initial sound of 褐 should be 'h', similar to 喝.
我沒有聽過有人讀紅「逗」沙，個個都講紅「豆」沙，不過呢，又人人都讀紅「逗」生南國 …… ！
回覆刪除
我們廣東話的確是一「 paul 」樹，有人讀 一「火」樹？
[版主回覆09/24/2008 08:04:00]Isis: 1) 其實我覺得讀紅「豆」沙比較自然些，但請教過專業配音員，如果單說這個詞語，不夾在文句中，應該讀紅「逗」沙。
2) 唔知點解，好多人一望見個「棵」字，就以為佢同「顆」字同音
我都記得大學時有教 粵音9聲，很快就送回老師了
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/24/2008 08:07:00]施裴：今時今日，記得普通話四聲咪得囉
讀書的時候沒有修關於粵語的課，現在才覺得遺憾
Thank you, Chestnut. I am so glad I am right for a change. But I am a bit surprised that not a single person out of my Thursday night class had it right. Not so good for them.
回覆刪除
Speaking of 粵音9聲 from the other blogger, why do they call it 9? There're only 6, and the other 3 are clearly of a different pronunciation. Don't you think those scholars are being too cute by half?
[版主回覆09/25/2008 08:20:00]Dear Teach: Please don't blame your students. Most people in Hong Kong do not care about Cantonese. They just 有邊讀邊, and that's why there are so much mispronunciation.
I don't know much about 粵音9聲. Scholars say there are nine tones in Cantonese and I accept it as a fact.
I wasn't even aware of a British pronunciation of "schedule" until you mentioned it so I looked it up. So, you elide the "c" in schedule? I've never heard it pronounced that way. Maybe I'm becoming "hard of hearing" in my old age
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/25/2008 08:23:00]Dear Teach: Yes. And I think that pronunciation is rare in HK.
When I was in secondary school, I didn't use the British pronunciation. But a tutor in U told us that we need to be consistent (either all British or all American), so I chose all British from then on.
不過語言是用來溝通用的，如果跟人說："我諗吓先"讀成"我（審）吓先” ，對方一定即時會傻了眼 ，問：你講咩呀 ？即時溝通唔到 ，如果跟對方一番好意說這是正音呀 ，對方不但不會感激告知，反之會面露不悅 ，更甚是多加一句：扮晒嘢，扮晒懶勁 ．
回覆刪除一些字雖然知道正音的讀法，卻又未必可以在日常與朋友溝通中應用出來啊． 不過我就好開心栗妹告知我們正音 ，謝謝！
[版主回覆09/25/2008 08:26:00]> 不過語言是用來溝通用的
Nicole 說得好！
其實在日常生活中，我並不執著於正音，只不過是工作所需，逼於無奈才要鑽研一下。
不過研究了一輪之後，又發覺幾有趣
大抵是粵音的 平上去入吧，想亦有很多都是約定俗成的，既然粵語是活生生的語言（方言），也許會隨時間而改變。大嶼山的“嶼”字，恐怕讀起正音來會難倒很多香港人。
回覆刪除schedule 的英讀是一例，此外還有 Memo 的讀法也各異。語文原來是多有趣！
[版主回覆09/25/2008 08:30:00]乏言先生：語文事，約定俗成總難免。不過有些所謂的「約定俗成」，其實是「習非成是」，要不得
哈哈，先生提到的 memo，我想要考起很多人呢！
至於「嶼」字，當我看見《蘭嶼之歌》時，我都不知道該讀「敍」還是「余」好，頭痛
I have many 懶音 because I live with my grandmother who came from the mainland China and my mum has a hearing disability... so sad... dunno how to correct my Cantonese pronunciation SIGH...
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/25/2008 12:43:00]Don't get upset, Kenji! It may help if you listen to the radio more often. And remember to look up a word in the dictionary if you're not sure of its pronunciation.
BTW, I think your voice is nice.
廣東話唔易學架!
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/25/2008 12:44:00]祈櫻子：寫完這篇以後，有份外深切的體會！
栗子妹：講到粵語正音，慧行始終認為是現今為人師表最大的責任，先別說懶音的問題，就像栗子妹所列舉的字例的正確讀音也真值得我們好好的學習和關注，慧行不妨多舉兩個例子：
回覆刪除1. 子曰的“曰”，正確讀音不是“若”，讀“若”是錯的，但就不知為甚麼老師們總教學生們讀“若” 正確讀音應讀作“乙”
2. 娶字一般讀作“取”；但有時候中文字的讀音是有動詞與名詞之分：
娶妻的娶字是動詞，讀作“取”是正確的；但“嫁娶”是作名詞看，這個娶字就不能讀作“嫁取”，正確讀法應該是讀作“嫁趣”，這一點慧行相信很大部份的國文老師在教學時都是一音兩讀，是他們不知其中分別？還是他們塞責了事？
當然仲有好多例子真係一匹布咁長都無法盡錄呀 ~~
[版主回覆09/25/2008 12:50:00]先謝謝慧行先生的例子！若不是先生提起，栗子妹都不知道中文跟英文一樣，動/名詞的讀法有分別呢！
記得讀中一、二的時候，中文科的老師非常有學問，不過自從升上中三後，老師的水準就好像差了點啦......
我做代課教小二中文時, 課文裡有"扔垃圾"三字. 我讀"'仍'垃圾", 學生們就話老師教他們讀"'調'垃圾". 我不敢改他們, 因為不知自己是否對. 後來問一退休老師, 她說讀"wing"垃圾.
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/25/2008 12:52:00]芝芝：「扔」字的讀法，是讀小五的補習學生教我的，當時我還爭辯說是讀「丟」呢！回想起來真丟人......
Chestnut, I am surprised a language lover like yourself is not aware of 粵音 9 聲 . But I assure you there are only 6. You could verify it by taking a common pronunciation, like 人 , and think of all the possible pitches such a sound would have in Cantonese, and I assure you you'll get 6. But when you question a Cantonese aficionado, he'll tell you the other 3, which anyone not hard of hearing could tell are of completely different pronunciation. He'll then give you a long and esoteric explanation of the reasons, which make no sense at all.
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/25/2008 13:01:00]Dear Teach: I'm more a money lover la~~~
My colleague says the last 3 tones in Cantonese (7, 8, 9) is the same as Tone 1, 3 & 6 + a 't/k/d' ending sound. Take 詩 (si1) as an example. It corresponds to 昔 (sik7). The pronunciation changes as a consonant stop is added.
Maybe experts think that 6 tones are not enough for their study, so they add 3 more? If you want to get a thorough knowledge of a subject, sometimes you may need more accurate classification.
I'm not sure if I could agree with Nicole's statement. While language is used primarily for communication, how it is used says a great deal about the user. It's similar to clothing, if you know what I mean. Dressing properly for the occasion shows respect for those you're meeting with. Speaking properly is the same idea. If one doesn't know the proper pronunciation, that's one thing, but if one does, one should try to achieve it. In the example she gave, the 諗 as 審 and the 諗 as "think", as you explained, are two different words in Cantonese which happen to have the same character, so there's no need to change the pronunciation of "think".
回覆刪除[版主回覆09/25/2008 13:24:00]> Dressing properly for the occasion shows respect for those you're meeting with.
Yes. If you respect your mother tongue, you'll try to say every single word properly and learn more about it.
But there are other constraints such as 約定俗成. If the people around you use a certain pronunciation (no matter it is correct or not) but you insist on using another, people will think that you are pretentious, just like what Nicole said. Peer pressure ...
I think people in HK don't care about Cantonese. Everyone rushes to learn Putonghua nowadays.
If only the rules you mentioned were consistent, it wouldn't be so confusing. Still, how does one know if the epenthesis is t, d, k, or p? Take 詩 (si1) as an example, is the k added here for just 7, or all 7, 8 & 9?
回覆刪除What about 刺 ? Is it part of the 9 sounds of "si", or is it out by itself. To me, 刺 doesn't only have a different end consonant, it also has a different initial consonant.
[版主回覆09/30/2008 12:56:00]Dear Teach,
Here comes my late reply:
1) For the epenthesis, I think we'll have to look up the characters in the dictionary. Take "si" as an example, you can have 'sit', 'sid', 'sik' and 'sip'. Some of the sounds have a corresponding character (昔 sik7) while some do not.
2) The ending sounds apply to 7, 8 and 9.(sik8) is 錫, (sik9) is 蝕.
3) 刺 doesn't belong to the 9 sounds of "si".
According to this HK website, Cantonese has only 6 pitches
回覆刪除http://www.cantonese.ca/tones.php